LeTransmuteur.Net

By Carlo Suares

Conversation with Krishnamurti

One can hardly find more unclassifiable than Krishnamurti, the man they wanted to turn into "new Christ" when he was a child and, taking off, refused any ideology and any church in the name of the most demanding freedoms : one that would rid us of any radically habit and any forecast. His mantra was: "Free us from the known! "Mission seemingly impossible: how could we not rely on any belief to work? Throughout his life, multiplying conferences, Krishnamurti developed a midwifery who had the good sense to not impose any answer, but forced his listeners to question the fact that we live mostly on prejudice and preconceptions .

More libertarian, you die!

Carlos Suarez: This is not what they want.

Krishnamurti: Tell them that I have not read anything, I have no references. For me, there are psychological mutation that stops when the additive process.

Carlos Suares: You just say the word mutation. This is a word often found in Planet. but accompanied, in general, the idea that the transformation of this modern world can lead us, as naturally, a change of internal state, while you want a total and immediate revolution of consciousness, that may not cause evolution.

Krishnamurti: We all know that our time is explosive, as the means of man, remained at very nearly constant for millennia are suddenly multiplied millions of times; that electronic computers, just to mention it become hourly more fantastic, that tomorrow we'll go to the Moon or elsewhere that biology is beginning to discover the mystery of life and even create life. We know that the most established data of science are crumbling; that everything is constantly being challenged and that the brains are pushed and shoved to get in motion. We know all this, it is not necessary to revisit this aspect of our time. In the current confusion, man is in search of material security that can only be achieved through technological knowledge. Religions have become superstructures that have little real importance in world affairs, however, that fundamental questions remain unanswered: Time, Pain, Fear ...

Mutation, Religion, Fear ...

Carlos Suarez: This is where we can start a debate. I think many readers of this planet will tell you, they are also willing to recognize that the environment is in turmoil: why, then, does. not think that this great movement will not occur simultaneously in our brains?

Krishnamurti:. We can, indeed, think. But is this what might be called a mutation? Have an electronic brain? The brain is not any consciousness.

Carlos Suares: It is not that of the brain. Our consciousness expands to the extent of the planet, and what happens at the other end of the world ...

Krishnamurti: Yes, yes, I understood ...

Carlos Suares: ... Buddhist monks who are shining, black American ...

Krishnamurti: Yes, yes, they are part of us, and the appalling poverty in Asia, and all tyranny everywhere, and cruelty, and ambition, and greed, and endless conflicts in the world, we feel it all. All this is us. Have all this in mind completely, and see how extraordinary depth should be the mutation.

Carlos Suares: There are currently, in France, a school of thought which, noting that the complexity of the human environment has become inextricable, that would be able to form a collective human thought, capable of uniting the son of a synthesis of our scattered knowledge ...

Krishnamurti: What other issues do you see?

Carlos Suares: The religious question, of course. Can we predict the future of a religion based on a better understanding of the cosmos and the feeling that man is in it?

Krishnamurti: And what else?

Carlos Suarez: I have been asked to ask you what you think about the fact that at depths of modern man, whether young or old, there is fear ...

KRISHNAMURTI: I see. If you like, we'll get to work ... But are you sure that planet will agree to publish everything I say?

Carlos Suarez: I have a formal assurance. Can you, in one sentence, give me the gist of what you propose to do?

Krishnamurti: unpacking the totality of consciousness.

Carlos Suares: You mean you have each of deconditioning the absolute totality of his own conscience? Let me tell you what most disconcerting, in your teaching, your insistent assertion that deconditioning total consciousness does not need any time.

Krishnamurti: If it was an evolutionary process, I do not mutation called spokes. A mutation is an abrupt change of state.

The psychological transformation is not what you think

Carlos Suarez: I can not imagine a "mutant", that is to say, a man changing state of consciousness, which does not prevail with him the result of all the past. Man changes the environment and the environment modifies ...

Krishnamurti: No, man modifies the habitat and environment changes as part of the man who is connected to environmental changes, not the whole man, in its extreme depth. No outside force can do that: it only modifies the superficial parts of consciousness. No psychological analysis also can not cause any analysis because the mutation is within the scope of the term. And no experience can provoke some exalted and "spiritual" kind. Instead, it appears more like a revelation, the more it affects. In the first two cases - psychological changes produced by the analysis or introspection, and changes produced by external pressure - the individual does not undergo profound transformation: it is amended, shaped, readjusted, so as to be adapted to Social.

In the third case. changes brought about by a so-called spiritual experience, is consistent with an organized faith, is very personal, the individual is thrown into the escape dictated by the authority of some symbol.

In all cases there is a binding action of drawing on a social morality, that is to say a state of contradiction and conflict. Every society is self-contradictory. Every society requires effort on the part of those who constitute it. But contradiction, conflict, stress, competition are barriers that prevent all change, because change means freedom.

Carlos Suares: Where escapes in the symbols?

Krishnamurti: There are symbolic images in the unexplored parts of consciousness. Even the words are only symbols. We must put out the words.

Carlos Suares: ... But the theologies

Krishnamurti: Let there theologies. Any theological immaturity.

Do not lose the thread of our conversation. We had to experience, and we said that all experience is conditionality. Indeed, the whole experience - and I do not speak only of those so-called spiritual - necessarily has its roots in the past.

Whether reality or my neighbor, I recognize that implies an association with the past. So-called spiritual experience of the past is the answer to my anguish, my pain, my fear, I hope. This response is the projection of compensation to a miserable state. My consciousness projects the opposite of what it is, because I am convinced that this otherwise happy and exalted is a comforting reality. Thus, my Catholic faith or Buddhist constructs and projects the image of the Virgin or the Buddha, and these fabrications arouse intense emotion in the same layers of consciousness unexplored who, having made unknowingly take it for reality. Symbols, or words, become more important than reality. They install as a memory in a consciousness that says, "I know because I had a spiritual experience. "Then the words and conditioning vitamins to read each other in a vicious circle of a closed circuit.

Carlos Suares: A phenomenon of induction?

Krishnamurti: Yes. The memory of the intense emotion, shock, ecstasy creates suction to the repetition of the experiment, and the symbol becomes the supreme inner authority, the ideal towards which tend all the efforts. Capture the vision becomes a goal to constantly think and discipline, a way. But the thought is this that creates a distance between the individual and as a symbol or ideal. There is no change possible if you die at that distance. The mutation is only possible when all experience ceases completely. The man who no longer lives no experience is an enlightened man. But see what is happening everywhere: we are always looking for experience deeper and wider. We are convinced that experiences, it's really live. In fact, what we saw is not reality, but the symbol, the concept, the ideal, the word. We live by words. If the so-called spiritual life is a perpetual conflict, because one makes the claim of feeding concepts as if hungry, you could feed on the word "bread". We live by words and not facts. In all the phenomena. phenomena of life, whether spiritual life, sex life, the material organization of our business or our pleasure, we are stimulating in words. The words are organized in ideas, and thoughts on these incentives, we believe we live more intensely than we knew better, thanks to them, create distances between reality (we, as we are) and a ideal (the projection of the opposite of what we are). Thus, we turn our backs to the mutation.

Die at the time, to systems, words

Carlos Suares: recap. Exists in consciousness as a conflict of any kind, there is no mutation. As dominating our thoughts on the authority of the church or state, there is no mutation. As our personal experience stands as inner authority, there is no mutation. As education, social background, tradition, culture, our civilization short, with all its workings, conditions us, it is unnecessary change. While there adaptation, there is no mutation. While there escape, whatever its nature, there is no mutation. That I am trying to as an ascetic, as I believe in a revelation, as I have a great whatever it is, there is no mutation. As I try to know me in analyzing psychologically, there is no mutation. While there an effort to change, there is no mutation. While there image, symbol, or ideas, or even words, there is no mutation. Have I said enough? Not. Because, having reached this point, I can only have to add: as long as there thinking, there is no mutation.

Krishnamurti: That is correct.

Carlos Suarez: So what you are talking about this change all the time?

Krishnamurti: That is a total explosion within the unexplored layers of consciousness, an explosion in the seed or, if you will, in the root of the package, a destruction of life.

Carlos Suares: But life itself is conditioning. How can we destroy the duration and not to destroy life itself?

Krishnamurti: You really want to know?

Carlos Suares: Yes.

Krishnamurti: Time to Die. Die design Total Time: Past, present and future. Systems die, die with symbols, words to die because they are factors of decomposition. Die to your psyche because it is he who makes the psychological time.

This time has no reality.

Carlos Suarez: So, what else does it, if not despair, anxiety, fear of conscience who have lost all support and to the notion of self-identity?

Krishnamurti: If a man asked me that question as well, I would reply that he did not make the trip, he was afraid to go across the river. What is that fear?

Carlos Suares: What you say is scary. And I wonder if consciousness does not, deep within itself, need to fear. This would explain why it is always maintained, fueled by religions that are supposed to be havens and tranquilizers. They maintain the fear by preventing awareness of perceiving as it is. They interpose, between consciousness and reality, the screen theologies.

Krishnamurti: This problem is both deep and broad. Approach it by feeling, as it were, from various sides. Fear is Time and Thought. We give continuity to fear through thought and through thought we give continuity to pleasure. This simple fact is thinking about the object of our pleasure, we give a continuity to pleasure, and we do the same for fear, thinking the object of our fear. If I am afraid of you - or death, or something else - I think you or death and I fear interviews as well. If, against, sometimes we meet face to face the object of our fear, it ceases.

Carlos Suares: How so?

Krishnamurti: I mean the psychological fear, not from fear of physical danger that one seeks to depart from what is natural. Consider the fear of death. What is she? We divide the whole phenomenon of life in life and death. Life is known and, of death, nothing is known. Are they afraid of what is unknown or, rather, are they afraid of losing what we know? It is obvious that life and death are two aspects of the same phenomenon. If one stops to consider them as two different phenomena, there is no conflict.

Carlos Suares: Can we not ask ourselves the question what fear itself?

Krishnamurti: There is no fear in itself. There is never fear of something.

The question of death

Carlos Suares: But are there not a fundamental fear?

Krishnamurti: No. Fear is always fear of something. Examine the question carefully and you will see. All fear, even unconscious, is the result of a thought. The widely held fear in all areas and the psychological fear, inside me, are always the fear of not being. Not to be this or that, or not to be short. The obvious contradiction between the fact that everything that exists is transient and the search for a permanent psychological, is the origin of fear. To be free from fear, we must explore the idea of ​​per-manence in its entirety. The man who has no illusions is not afraid. This does not mean it is cynical, bitter or indifferent.

Carlos Suares: It means he saw that the psychological structure on which it supported the notion of identity is not real, it is verbal.

Krishnamurti: So here we are before a major problem: death. To understand this issue, not verbally but actually, I mean in all reality to enter the fact of death, we must get rid of any concept, any speculation, any belief about it, because any idea that one can have on it is rooted in fear. If we are fearless, you and me, we can properly ask the question of death. We do not ask what happens "after", but we will explore death as a fact. To understand what death is, all begging groping in the darkness must cease. Are we, you and me, in this frame of mind which does not seek to know what is "after death", but wonders what death is? You see the difference? If one asks what is "after", it is because we do not wonder what it is. And we are in condition to ask ourselves? Can we really wonder what death as one does not wonder what life is? And is wondering what life is, as we have notions, ideas, theories about what it is? What is the life we ​​know? We know the existence of a consciousness that continues to struggle in all kinds of internal and external conflicts.

Torn in its contradictions, its existence is con-keeping within the circle of its requirements and obligations, she seeks the pleasures and sufferings she flees. We are fully absorbed by an inner emptiness that the accumulation of material possessions or mental can never fill. In this state, the question of what death can not arise, because the question of what life does not arise. The existence that we know is it life? Similarly, explanations: resurrection of the dead, reincarnation, etc.., Are they from a knowledge of death? They are only projections of ideas that can be done about the fragment of existence we call life. Die in the psychological structure with which one identifies; die every minute, every day, every act that we do, to die in the immediate pleasure and length of sentence, and know everything that is involved in this death, so we are able to ask the question: what is death?

You do not argue with bodily death. Yet only those who can die from moment to moment can avoid taking the death with an impossible dialogue. In this perpetual death is a perpetual renewal, a freshness that is not the world of continuity in time. This creation is dying. Creation is love and death.

The churches can not do anything

Carlos Suarez: I have questions to ask about religion. The most recent major religions are still néesà times when the Earth was a flat disk, where the sun went through the vault of heaven, etc.. Until recently (Galileo is not far), they imposed through violence a Cosmos of childhood imagery. Today, unable to do otherwise, they take on the tone of science and simply to admit that their cosmogonies are only symbolic. But they claim that, despite this capitulation, they are the guardians of eternal truths. What do you think?

Krishnamurti: They continue their propaganda to gain power over consciences. They seek to take the child to better condition.

Religions of the churches and state the need to proclaim the virtues, while their history is a series of violence, terror, torture, massacres unimaginable.

Carlos Suares: But do not you think that churches today are less closely activists? Do not we see the heads of the largest churches declare that human brotherhood is more important than the details of worship?

Krishnamurti: If a statement of brotherhood is more important than the worship is that worship has lost its importance in the eyes of its pontiffs. This supposed universalism is at best a tolerance. To be tolerant, it is hardly tolerate the neighbor under certain conditions. Any tolerance is intolerance, as well as non-violence is violence. In truth, in our age, religion, as a true communion of man with what is beyond, does not play a role in the march of human affairs. Religious organizations, by cons, are political and economic instruments.

Carlos Suares: But these religious organizations can not they lead people to a reality beyond that?

Krishnamurti: No.

What is a free spirit?

Carlos Suarez: Let's go to religious sentiment. Modern man, who lives consciously in Einstein's universe rather than in that of Euclid, can not it be better to commune with the reality of the universe through an informed awareness and expanded in an appropriate manner ?

Krishnamurti: Whoever wants to expand his consciousness can also choose among psychodrogues, the one that suits him best. As to better commune with the universe through an accumulation of information and scientific knowledge about the atom, and galaxies, as saying that a huge bookish erudition, about love, shows us the love. And besides, your ultra-modern man, if informed of the latest scientific discoveries, he has so far set fire to his unconscious universe?

As a single parcel remain unconscious in him, he will project the unreality of symbols and words by which he will have the illusion of communion with something higher.

Carlos Suares: Do not you think, however, that a religion of the future science-based is possible?

Krishnamurti: Why do we speak of religion for the future? Rather see what true religion. Organized religion can only produce social reforms, superficial changes. A religious organization is necessarily located within a social framework. I'm talking about. a religious revolution that can not take place outside of the psychological structure of a society whatsoever. A truly religious mind is devoid of any fear, because it is free of all structures that civilizations have imposed over millennia. Such a mind is empty, in that it was emptied of all the influences of the past, collective and personal, as well as the pressures of this activity that creates the future.

Carlos Suares: Such a mind, as it was emptied of its contents which contained the truth, is extraordinarily free ...

Krishnamurti: It is free, quick and totally silent. It is the silence that matters. It is a state without measure. Only then can we see, but not as an experience, that this has no name, which is in-delàde thought, which is energy without cause. Without this creative silence, whatever you do, there will be on earth no peace or brotherhood, that is to say no true religion.

Carlos Suares: All religions advocate any form of prayer, a method of contemplation to enter into communion with a higher reality, whose name, God, Atman, Cosmos, etc.. varies. By any religious act done? Do you pray?

Krishnamurti: The repetition of words sanctifying calm a restless mind in falling asleep.

Prayer is a sedative that can live inside an enclosure without feeling the psychological need for it to pieces, destroy. The mechanism of prayer, like all mechanisms, provides mechanical results. There are no prayer can pierce the ignorance of self. Any prayer to that which is limitless presupposes a limited mind knows where and how to achieve unlimited. That means it has ideas, concepts, beliefs about it, and he is caught in a system of explanation, a mental prison. Far from liberating, prayer traps. But freedom is the essence of religion, in the true sense of the word. This essential freedom is denied by all religious organizations, despite what they say. Far from being a state of prayer, self-knowledge is the beginning of meditation. This is neither an accumulation of knowledge about psychology, or a so-called religious state of submission, which we hope to grace. This is what demolishes the disciplines imposed by the Company or the Church. It is a state of attention and not a concentration on anything special. Because the brain is quiet and silent watches the outside world and has no plans no imagination and no more illusion. To observe the movement of life, it's as fast as she, and active management. Only then, the immeasurable, timeless, infinite can arise. That is, the true religion.

What remains to awaken

Carlos Suares: Do you think a collective thought, collective intelligence that, having recorded and synthesized the recent acquisitions of all sciences, if it could be, would be able to guide humanity to a healthy development?

Krishnamurti: From bullock cart to the rocket space travel progression is due to a certain part of the brain. Would develop it, this part, even millions of times, it would not take one step forward the fundamental problem that arises human consciousness about itself. And it will grow. This process is irreversible and necessary. But there is another part of the brain is not awake and that we can vitalize today. This awakening is not a matter of time. This is a revolutionary explosion, the sources of all things, arises and prevents crystallizes, that hardens by deposits of the past, a psychological structure. This lucid approach every problem as and when it occurs, and the importance of the problem becomes secondary. Freedom and peace can not be established in the world if this emergence, which is energy without cause, neither individual nor collective lives.

Source: nouvellescles

This article was published Sunday, April 19, 2009 at 21:36 in: Spirituality / Religion . You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed . You can make a comment or trackback from your own site.